Comments made in gallery and critique forum

Sharon Repple wrote

on 30 Jul 2009 8:17 PM

I have been a member of this community since late last year and have throughly enjoyed showing you my work and reading your comments on my work and the work of other artists. I have been wondering though about what words I like to read when I post my work in the gallery and in the various forums. When I first started posting my work I was cautious to say the least, because I didn't know how I would handle your criticism. To my surprise, I found no one to be harsh in their comments.  Many fellow artists would use their artistic knowledge to teach me new techniques or give me a composition rule or suggest materials to use. Some have taken the time to start a conversation or comment on my member page.  I have learned so much from each of you.

The hardest comments to take are the ones where no one comments at all.   I think I want my fellow artists to tell me what you see, what you like, what needs fixed, what you feel, how to fix the problem, what I did right, the improvements you see. These are the ones that I look forward to when I read your comments and the comments you make on other artists work.

What kind of comments do you want to hear in regard to your work?  What do you think when someone says your work is nice? How do you feel when no one comments on your work?

Thanks again for all of your help, Sharon Repple

Barbara A. Lewis wrote

on 31 Jul 2009 4:31 AM

I am glad that you posted this Sharon. I have only posted a couple of works in the gallery and received favorable comments on both - some from you - thank you very much. I always ask for feedback when I post a piece in the individual forums, but sometimes I do not receive any feedback at all, other times some. It is somewhat of a letdown when there are no comments at all. I think to date the harshest criticism I have received was in regards to my painting of Isis in the Critique forum. Someone used an expletive and to this date I am still not sure what she meant to say. I like to learn from others as well and when I want some active critique I will post under the Critique my art forum.I like constructive critiques and benefit from them.

I have commented on some of the paintings in the critique my art forum, but I am still struggling with my confidence level and do not feel qualified to comment on a lot of them, especially the watercolors since that is one media I do not feel confident in using. But I think as a whole, I have seen some wonderful critiques on there and I learn from seeing what others have to say about the different works, etc.

As far as what types of comments I like to hear: I enjoy hearing positive comments of course, but sometimes if it is a difficult piece, I like to hear from experienced artists what they would change, etc. I am working on that “thick skin” in preparation for upcoming art shows and I know that I will be hearing negative comments from time to time as well. I hope to learn from them or in some cases, learn to disregard them, and move on.

I have you listed as a friend, so please feel free to start a conversation and ask for my advice on any work where you feel I can be of help. I do not always have time to peruse the gallery as much as I would like, unfortunately.

smithharia wrote

on 9 Aug 2009 3:55 PM

I agree with what you say, Sharon. I have posted to the Gallery and really enjoy it when I get comments back and yes, it's great to hear someone likes it but am very open to criticism so long as it is constructive. So far, no one has been anything but kind.

I am very new to all of this. For years, got so involved with work,etc. that did little art or when I did, immediately decided it wasn't 'good enough', whatever that means and just file it away. I have finally started putting my work out both at home and on this site and am really pleased with the response. I think art is a somewhat lonely business, particularly for those of us who live alone. I tend to start working and forget the outside world even exists. Then suddenly realize I haven 't seen or talked to anyone for days!

Getting involved on this site has been really good for me in terms of encouragement, feeling less alone and just having someone to 'talk' to when things are not going well.

As you say, the hardest comments to take are none at all or the rather casual, 'oh, that's nice'.

Thanks for posting this.

Anne

DanaD12 wrote

on 12 Aug 2009 11:24 AM

Hi, Sharon!  Initially my assumption was that the gallery was a show and tell place and I didn't realize that we could also offer advice/suggestions on the paintings until recently.  I always hesitate to offer a critique unless someone specifically asks for it.  It's a dicey area to jump into. 

Do all members know that when posting their work, they also might be receiving critiques? 

Sharon Repple wrote

on 12 Aug 2009 8:29 PM

That's a good question, Dana.  When I first started here, one of the members, Old Paint, asked for critiques or comments because he wanted to know what artist thought of his work not just "very nice."  So when I entered my work, I assumed from the beginning that other artists would share their expertise.  On occasions, other artists would write a comment on my member page or start a conversation if they had a particular comment they thought would help me. Then if I choose to I could delete comment. I have learned so much from other artists on this site so I find it worth risking my sensitive feelings. I still take a deep breath each time I post.  Also, I love the lively and funny exchanges with the artists.

L Skylar Brown wrote

on 16 Aug 2009 2:36 PM

Hi Sharon-

I'm taking your suggestion, and adding to the blog. Having just endured 24 hours of sometimes whithering, sometimes heated attack, I come to this spot a little shaken. Since this forum is public, I'm assuming those who have issues with me will follow. Non the less, I would like some direct feed-back from anyone who feels I have done them a dis-service with my comments. As far as I can recall, I have only offered direct comment as I see things. I have never assaulted an individual on this site (For an example of what not to do - Go to Member Gallery - Coconut & Pot - there are 40 or so comments - notably latter ones that attacked me personally for the past comments, as well as present ones. This is disheartening, and I would really like some perspective on this

Thanks

Skylar

Elizabeth Kennen wrote

on 16 Aug 2009 3:01 PM

Sharon, I think it's good that you brought this up, for the artists here to express themselves as to what they think the gallery is all about.  It has been such a positive experience for me to post my artwork here.  I get encouragement and feel more energized and excited to dive into new paintings.  Yes, it feels good to have fellow artists give you compliments.  It's also helpful to have your work critiqued - something pointed out that you might not have considered....a suggestion here and there.  The comments I've read, (directly relating to the paintings), have been polite and respectful.  (Not always from artist to artist).  Each one of us will see things in a different way.  We should express ourselves and have respect for a critique that we don't agree with.

smithharia wrote

on 16 Aug 2009 3:20 PM

Skylar

Have no idea what's going on because haven't been on the gallery for a couple of days but am so sorry to hear of your problem, Sky. You are certainly one of the several people who has been most helpful to me and cannot tell you how much I have appreciated your comments on my work. There has never been the slightest hint of attack but only very constructive comments that I asked for.

I hope you will not get discouraged and stay away from the site. Just what little I have gotten to know you and and your work, you are a definite asset to the gallery.

Anne

phillip2 wrote

on 21 Aug 2009 7:13 AM

I agree with everyone and have a few thoughts of my own.  first-to get no comments at all is heartbreaking and I am guilty of not making comments on a lot of critiques.  I have had some of my pictures receive only one comment-so I don't post much anymore. 

As a corollary-I've made comments and been ignored and/or have someone else indicate my comments had no merit.

I'm not so much a gregarious forum chatter-a fault of obligations.

I like constructive comments:IE "I see where you're going-here's how I would make it better" type of thing.  A positive stroke here and there is of course an encouragement-and should we not all be trying to encourage one another?

I have learned a great deal from this group and because of all of you-will be taking on "Weekend with the Masters"-frightened-but taking it on.

Phillip

DanaD12 wrote

on 21 Aug 2009 8:49 AM

I do think a lot of people become confused about how to give a critique.  First and foremost, we should not critique the artist as a person and we should not critique others who are giving a critique.  Everyone sees things differently and they all have a right to an opinion as long as that opinion is polite, structured and helpful.  A critique should be directed toward the painting, the art.  We should remember that there are REAL people we're speaking to.  Courtesy is paramount.  I think it's ok to ask another critiquer why they came to a conclusion but it's really not ok to criticize them for that conclusion.  This is a check list on how to give a critique and has been compiled over many years of moderating a critique forum. 

Not quite sure how to give a critique? This article is an attempt to provide some advice.

There are two checklists: a positive list for the elements that contribute to a successful work; and a negative list that looks at flaws.
Finally, you will find advice on putting it all together including the frame of mind needed for providing a critique. I have tried to keep the lists compact and general while still aiming to explain what is, perhaps, not obvious. The lists should work for both realism and abstract art as they are not based on a set of rules such as "Don't put the horizon on the middle".


Positive Check List

Focus/impact area - An effective focus/impact area makes the difference between a picture and a work of art. The impact area gives the viewer direction and establishes a sense of priority for all the other elements. A focus/impact area means that the artist has been able to capture what in real life is selective seeing - we can only focus on one thing at a time, the rest is seen through peripheral vision. Does the work have such an area?
Mood/feeling - Does the work convey a mood? Decide if it is merely rendering of parts or if there is a sense of interpretation and feeling.
Creativity - What has been done better, or differently, from the ordinary? Was creativity used in the selection of subject and/or use of materials?
Composition - Design - Are there interesting shapes - both positive and negative? Is there a variety of shape sizes? Are the picture elements arranged in a dominant design scheme - for example with rectangular or diagonal emphasis? Is the design based on one or several geometric forms and, if several, do they work together? Does the design work with, or against, the subject? Does it attract attention to itself (i.e. the arrangement takes over the subject)? Is the composition balanced?
Composition - Counterpoint - Evaluate the complexity of the subject and the selection of shapes used. Look for a dominant element, subelements and repetition of elements. Is there variety/counterpoint? In general, the more complex the better - without going over the top. Remember the rule: ”Diversity within unity”.
Value - How has tonal value been used to convey mood, depth, dimension, and impact/focus? Look at the composition of general tonal areas.
Color - How has color been used to convey mood, harmony, and depth? Does the color scheme fit the subject? Has color been used to establish a focus/impact area? Check for the use of color fundamentals like complementary or analogous color.
Other fundamentals - Evaluate the use of other fundamentals (besides color and value) such as perspective, edges, and style. How does perspective help to convey depth? Is perspective used creatively? Are hard edges used to pull elements forward and soft edges used to integrate elements in the scene? How is style used to promote the intent/mood?
Unity - Unity is what holds all parts together. Has color, pattern or technique been used to establish unity?
Craftsmanship - This is where the technical skills such as drawing and the handling of materials are assessed.
Readability/flow - Can the viewer's eye move easily into the work? How has the artist used shape, line, value, color, perspective, etc to guide you to the focus/impact area, to/from sub-themes and away from exit areas?


Negative Check List

Technical inaccuracy - Does inaccurate drawing make elements work against the logic or intent of the composition? For example, shadows that fall in the wrong direction, a sloping horizon, errors in perspective for realistic art.
Lack of imagination - Poor selection of subject and approach. A dull subject rendered in a dull way.
Lack of originality - Presenting a trite subject that has been painted a thousand times before.
Content discrepancy – An element that is not in character with the logic or intent of the work. For example: the artist intends to make a realistic wildlife painting but shows the animal in the wrong environment.
Style discrepancy - Inconsistent styles within the same work, or the obvious influence of another artist’s style in parts.
Inconsistent quality - Landscape good, wildlife weak.
Easy way out – The artist has obviously positioned a subject to avoid difficult detail.
Plagiarism - The artist has copied another's work, or used someone else's photographs, and presented it as their own. (This also has legal implications.)
Lack of interpretation - The artist was controlled by the subject. For example, including the shadow of a photo flash, or rendering a subject's eyes with effect of photo flash; a pleine aire artist has included an ugly object which detracts from their landscape simply because it was there.
Poor presentation - How is the work presented? Is it free from the non-artistic use of coffee-stains, globs of paint, brush hairs stuck in dry paint, fingerprints, shoddy frame, poorly cut matte, sloppily painted edges of canvas, canvas shining through, poor/uneven varnishing, cracks, scratches, etc?
Empty - No mood, message or feeling conveyed.

Your critique should be divided into two sections: what has been done well and what could be improved. The focus should be on providing feedback that will help the artist - and onlookers - learn something.

What has been done well - select a few of the best things and say why you think they work.

What could be improved – select areas where the biggest improvements could be made and say why. Suggest ways the improvements could be made and give your reasons. Where appropriate, provide links to relevant examples or reference material. If the artist has chosen to allow digital alternations of their work you may like to provide an edited image to illustrate your points.

Don't
*let the checklists dictate the form of the critique - you shouldn't try to comment on every item. Use them to help you pinpoint and analyse what has been done well and what could be improved.
*overwhelm the artist by including too many suggestions or too much information.

Do
*critique in a positive, non-judgmental spirit.
*try to pitch your critique to the right level - you will not turn a beginner into an expert in a single step.
*try to be as objective as possible and set aside your own taste in art - the critique is about the artist's work, not about you.

Remember, the artist is seeking constructive feedback on how to improve - both in the work under critique and for their future development. Therefore, your suggested improvements do not have to be corrections that can be easily made. For example, it may not be possible to completely rearrange a watercolor but the artist can incorporate what is learned in future work.

When the artwork is exceptionally good, and you can not find any improvements you can instead elaborate on the analysis and point out in more detail what has been done well - this could be more for the benefit of the onlookers than for the artist.

Finally, when giving a critique, try to think of yourself as being hired by the artist as a mentor or teacher, or perhaps a defense attorney whose job is to make your client's work look its best in court (even if it is hideous). If you truly dislike something and really can’t think of anything that would help, it is best to refrain from posting. If the artist has specifically asked for your opinion, perhaps, instead of a critique, you could suggest some exercises, articles, other artwork or reference material to look at. Remember there are plenty of lessons, projects, library images and other material here to refer to.

Hope this helps and I hope I haven't bored everyone!  :)

Barbara A. Lewis wrote

on 21 Aug 2009 2:38 PM

Yay Dana! Thanks so much for posting this - I am going to print it and post it next to my computer at home, and I will try my best to offer good critiques - I have always felt a little out of place in the critiquing section since I am just getting back into fine art - I feel a little underqualified, but these guidelines will definately help not only my critiquing, but also my art.

DanaD12 wrote

on 21 Aug 2009 4:00 PM

Barbara, so glad this made a difference for you!  Go for it!

Sharon Repple wrote

on 21 Aug 2009 6:44 PM

Wonderful comment Dana and very well thought out. You live what you teach.  Long ago when I was doing some training to be an instructor at the company where I worked , they told us first to comment on the positive things the individual accomplished and then tell them where they needed to improve. "A little bit of sugar helps the medicine go down"  Also, in a marriage class we were advised that you earn the privilege of being critical by giving positive comments first. IT WORKS I know for myself I can hear a critique better if it is introduced with a comment about what I did right.  For most of us, I believe we are here to learn.  The artists that use the skills mentioned are the ones I can't wait to read their comments.

Robin11 wrote

on 23 Aug 2009 9:00 AM

I'd like to mention that the disheartening "no comments" doesn't mean nobody likes it. 

You need a fair amount of confidence in you're ability to say more than "I like it"! I feel confident, for instance, only in my primary medium, colored pencil, and then mostly in technique. 

 This is a fledgling art site and I'd like to encourage everyone to keep posting.  The larger we get the more folks with the ability to effectively crit will join and WILL crit.

Hang in there, people and keep makign that art!

Daniel J. Keys wrote

on 24 Aug 2009 10:45 PM

 I dislike unsolicited critiques. Not that I can't handle receiving them myself, but I feel there are many here who assume it's their responsibility to offer advice to artists that never asked for it. And they don't always start out by saying "May I make a suggestion?" either, which would be the polite thing to do, but instead just start telling the original poster what they should change about the particular piece posted.

 I think that the original poster should have the right to put their work in the gallery, and be able to decide whether or not they'd like to have it critiqued.

 As a solution: Perhaps as a viewer with advice to give, asking first and awaiting a response from the original artist before giving negative feedback would keep things mutually polite; Or as the artist originally posting the work, stating that you're comfortable with others critiquing it would give them permission to be constructive.

 Either way, sensitivity to others feelings should be given first priority in anything posted here on the forums, and I think that professional curtesy can never be overrated. :)

Best,

-Daniel